Lossless Audio Playback on Samsung BD-C6900

[zamarac17]

Lossless Music Playback on Samsung BD-C6900

Pls explain how to use Mezzmo to stream lossless audio music or movie files with audio encoded in FLAC, APE, Dolby TruHD, DTS HD, etc. from PC to Samsung BD-C6900 player for playback via its 7.1 analog RCA ports to Onkyo Audio Receiver, which doesn't support HDMI 1.4 and Dolby TrueHD & DTS HD decoding & bit streaming via HDMI? Should they be transcoded to LPCM, or its different for each lossless format? Any examples? Does Mezzmo support transcoding Flac to LPCM and LPCM playback this player model? According to Samsung BD-C6900 Specs (http://www.samsung.com/ph/consumer/tv-audio-video/blu-ray-player/blu-ray-player/BD-C6900/XTC-spec), the player supports LPCM Audio playback (presumably via network too).

[Paul]

Most owners of this model use the 'Samsung BDP 3D' device profile in Mezzmo. Go to the Media Devices dialog to check your device's device proile. For music files, the device profile transcodes incompatible audio files to LPCM. But the LPCM is 2 channel only though. I am not sure streaming 5.1/7.1 channel LPCM will work for this device. For video files, it transcodes incompatible video files to MKV (H264, AC3). The AC3 audio channel is 2 channel or 5.1 channel.

[zamarac17]

But the LPCM is 2 channel only though. I am not sure streaming 5.1/7.1 channel LPCM will work for this device.

Thanks Paul. This Samsung spec (http://www.samsung.com/ph/consumer/tv-audio-video/blu-ray-player/blu-ray-player/BD-C6900/XTC-spec) says BD-C6900 supports LPCM decoding. How I can instruct Mezzmo to transcode to 5.1 channel LPCM and output to the player, when decoding an original Flac file? Should the original Flac file be already encoded as multichannel, or it can be in Stereo?

Similar question about DTS HD. If I encode Stereo lossless music into DTS HD (or its already encoded), can Mezzmo transcode it to 5.1 channel LPCM and output to the player? In this case the player will simply convert digital to analog, and output via 7.1 / 5.1 RCA.

The whole BD-C-series of Samsung BD players has 7.1 analog RCA Audio Out, so the player is handy when pared with older Receivers with 7.1 Analog In, which can't decode audio via HDMI. If you don't currently have a profile for this task, it can be a high demand market niche, since there are millions of older Audio Receivers in use without HDMI Audio decoding, and most people aren't in rush replacing them with HDMI based, since there is no audible difference in sound quality.

P.S. I tried to play Flac Music with several Samsung Profiles, but the output seems to be AC3 via optical, not LPCM, and its slower than original, making it inaudible. How to mod 'Samsung BDP 3D' profile to output in Flac in LPCM Multichannel? Why there is no output file format choice in Transcoding GUI - like a dropdown menu? Some people may like automation (or whatever is behind this term), but others prefer visible choice.

Also, will Mezzo keep my PC from falling asleep while it plays the file, like Utorrent does when downloading torrents? I played a movie with Samsung AllShare, and the PC fallen to Sleep in the middle of playback. :rolleyes:

[Paul]

Contact us at support [at] conceiva [dot] com and we'll provide you with a test device profile so you can test to see if it works for you.

You can pre-transcode your files. Right-click on a file in Mezzmo and click 'Pre-transcode File'. Once transcoded, right-click on the file and click Properties. In the Properties dialog, go to the Transcoding tab to see what formats/devices the file has been transcoded to. Whatever format you set to as 'preferred' will be streamed to your device. This gives you clear choice on what is streamed to your device.

Your PC should not go into sleep mode whilst you are streaming. Let us know if you experience any problem in this area.

[zamarac17]

How pre-transcoding works - does ffmpeg have a Table of what file formats it can generally transcode to what formats? And it transcodes a single file to multiple files of different format? If yes, it sounds way too convoluted to me, instead of giving the user a dropdown menu, where he can select to what format transcode on the fly or pre-transcode.

Here is sample Flac file info from ffmpeg -i :

This is a 6-track Audio CD copy as per its CUE sheet, encoded in Flac:

REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK: 0.00
Duration: 00:36:40.00, bitrate: 2362 kb/s
Stream #0:0: Audio: flac, 44100 Hz, 5.1(side), s16

How corresponding section of 'Samsung BDP 3D' profile will look like to transcode this file and also similar Flac files with different specs to LPCM 5.1 multichannel?

[Paul]

We have emailed you a test device profile to try. Let us know how you go.

[zamarac17]

Hi Paul,

I tried your test profile with 2 different albums & singers, and it doesn't work for multichannel flac. There are multiple issues:

- 2-channel flac plays OK via analog and optical, but Mezzmo can't show playlist from a Cue sheet (despite its read OK by ffmpeg), so only 1st song can play, and even that one can't play to its end at times, but other times it can play all tracks in sequence
- 5.1 channel flac plays very slow fully distorted via both analog and optical, just like with default profile. Again, Mezzmo can't read Cue sheet, so there is no playlist visible
- mp3 works OK and shows playlist (list of MP3 files in a folder)

Transcoding Pan shows no transcoding failures for both 2 and 6 channel flac. Can you fix these issues? Also, this Samsung player and my Onkyo receiver support 96Khz audio, can you add that setting to the profile?

I'll check with Samsung if the device does support multichannel LPCM decoding to multichannel analog RCA or Dolby Surround via S/PDIF. The problem is, their Manuals are incomplete, website doesn't give much either, and 1st level support staff doesn't know a thing beyond published Manual.

P.S. I just chatted with Samsung, and was told, the player does support multichannel LPCM decoding while playing a BD disk, but they have no info if that's also supported via LAN playback, so assume it is, since decoding algorithm should be the same via the same rendering chipset.

[Paul]

Thanks for the test results. Please send us a cue sheet for investigation. Mezzmo currently lets you import .PLS, .M3U and .WPL playlists. We will investigate cue sheets for future inclusion.

You should not assume that the DLNA firmware within the Samsung BDP will decode & play let streamed multi-channel LPCM. From our experience, often the DLNA decoding/playing part of a devices' firmware can be different in terms of format support compared to playing via USB, Blu-ray disc, etc.

One thing for you to try is to create a multi-channel LPCM file yourself and add it to your Mezzmo library. Then, go to the Media Devices dialog and edit your Samsung BDP device. On the Transcoding tab, turn off transcoding. Now all files will be presented and streamed natively (no transcoding) to your Samsung BDP. Let's see if your device can play your LPCM file. If it cannot, then we know that the device cannot play streamed multi-channel LPCM files.

Let us know how you go.

[zamarac17]

Flac format is the most popular lossless format, and nicely complemented by CUE Sheets reflecting ripped CD content. You can find more info about CUE playlists from CueTools (http://www.cuetools.net/wiki/CUETools) and CUE Sheet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cue_sheet_(music_software)) Wiki. Can you suggest a multichannel DLNA converter?

Illustrate Asset UPnP (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/asset-upnp-dlna.htm) Audio Server can transcode Flac to LPCM quite well, and has other popular features specific to audio streaming. Its amazing, how little attention media server developers devote to lossless audio streaming, while most users more often listen to the music than watch video. :)

[Paul]

Thanks for the information about CUE sheets.

With regards an audio converter tool, it's actually not DLNA-related - you just need a software tool to convert your multi-channel flac to multi-channel LPCM. Sorry, I don't have direct experience with audio conversion tools, so I am not much help. Try http://www.doom9.org and click on the Downloads section. They have lots of popular tools listed there.

[zamarac17]

So far I wasn't lucky to convert multichannel Flac to multichannel LPCM. I tried:

eac3to input.flac output.lpcm

which results in LPCM file that plays on PC very slowly. VideoHelp thread (http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/303315-Convert-flac-or-wav-to-lpcm?p=1858368&viewfull=1#post1858368) says, it has non-standard header content.

However, according to Samsung BD-C6900 (http://www.samsung.com/ph/consumer/tv-audio-video/blu-ray-player/blu-ray-player/BD-C6900/XTC-spec) spec, it can decode DTS-DH and Dolby True HD - hopefully via LAN too, not only from a BD disk. So, how to edit Samsung BDP profile to add conversion of 5.1 Flac to 5.1 DTS-HD or Dolby True HD, if at all possible (probably not with ffmpeg)?

I found similar (http://ffmpeg.zeranoe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=247&p=830&hilit=flac#p830) threads on ffmpeg conversion, so may be I should transcode Flac to LPCM or Dolby TrueHD saved in MP4 or MKV container instead of raw LPCM for normal multichannel audio playback via LAN? This way the device might comply with artificially restrictive DLNA spec, while at the same time play lossless within an officially supported container.

Another thing, Samsung doesn't play .lpcm and .raw extensions, but does .l16 one, which plays slowly via Asset UpNP Server. I wonder if it interprets .l16 format always meaning 2-channel lpcm? So what would be the right extension for 6-channel lpcm? Mezzmo filters all these extensions - so I had to add lpcm and l16 extensions to filters, the file shows up in Mezzmo PC Console, but not on TV screen - why?

[zamarac17]

Here is fresh citation from FFMpeg mailing list:

"What's the right command to transcode 5.1 Flac to 5.1 LPCM audio in ffmpeg?

FFmpeg does not support encoding Bluray PCM, patch welcome."

So, since Mezzmo uses FFMpeg for transcoding, it sounds impossible regardless of the device profile mod, the resulting file is garble LPCM at best.

[Paul]

OK - let's forget about attempting to encode to multichannel LPCM. How about we add support into your device profile for multichannel .DTS files? The Samsung BDP specification states it supports decoding DTS audio. Contact us at support [at] conceiva [dot] com for the new device profile.

[zamarac17]

Rergarding LPCM transcoding, I tried eac3to instead of ffmpeg, and when multichannel Flac is transcoded by eac3to to LPCM, it works OK on PC. I verified the transcoded file by importing it to Audacity, and it plays the same number of channels as original Flac with original quality. The problem still is, when DLNA interface is used, only 2-channel LPCM file with extension .l16 plays correctly via LAN on the BD player, since .l16 seems to be locked to 44100/16/2 by default. Any other LPCM media format with .l16 extension will be garbled, and any extension for LPCM file other than .l16 ignored by Samsung, if DLNA is used. So, it looks like the player just checks the file extension, since LPCM format is missing any header by default.

Yes, I'd like to try Flac-to-DTS transcoding - pls email me the profile to the same address. Hopefully it will play nicely via 7.1 RCA on my player. However, its not lossless format, and with the same success I can transcode Flac to lossy AC3 or AAC - right? DTS HD Master or Dolby TrueHD is a different story, but again DLNA will be the road block I presume? Can you do something around DLNA restrictions?

[Paul]

With regards the multi-channel LPCM file that you created, I'd like to confirm that your Samsugn BDP can play it or not via DLNA streaming. Please try this: Rename the file extension of your LPCM file to ".wav" and add it into your Mezzmo library. In Mezzmo, click on the .wav file and check the Properties pane to see if the audio characteristics look right (e.g. number of channels, etc.). Then, go to the Media Device dialog and edit your Samsung BDP device. In the Device Settings dialog, go to the Transcoding tab and turn off the transcoding checkbox. Restart your Mezzmo server and try streaming the wav file to your Samsung BDP. If it does not play, then please turn on logging and restart your Mezzmo server. Try streaming the file again, and when it fails, stop your Mezzmo server and exit Mezzmo. Zip up all your logs and send them to us at support [at] conceiva [dot] com.

[zamarac17]

Hi Paul,

Multichannel LPCM file transcoded from Flac with eac3to, has no header whatsoever. So, how renaming it to wav can possibly add a header to it, so that Mezzmo would ID its media info? I can transcode it to wav instead of renaming, but unfortunately, Samsung BD players don't support wav playback - meaning, when I rename .l16 to wav, it doesn't show any longer in list of playable files in DLNA interface. I assume, it wouldn't show either in UpNP interface, since WAV is not on the Samsung list (see above link) of supported media formats.

[Paul]

You're right, Zamar. We'll email you a device profile with DTS to test shortly.

[zamarac17]

I wonder if you use any transcoders other than ffmpeg? It might make more sense to transcode 5.1 Flac into 5.1 LPCM or Wav and pack it inside MPG or MKV container. Its quite possible that Samsung's audio format support inside video containers is broader than stand alone audio supported format choice. Is it possible to create such profile?

[Paul]

Is it possible to create such profile?

Yes it is. We'll start with the DTS version as discussed and then continue testing with other variants. Sorry for the delay - we should get the DTS profile to you today for testing.

[zamarac17]

The main problem with playing multichannel audio on streaming capable hardware like BD players is that many are restricted to not support generic UpNP protocol, but rather limited to its LPCM version. So you're stack with a set of predefined by LPCM and further limited by the player maker A/V formats, even in transcoding attempts. Anything else simply wouldn't play via DLNA interface. More flexible way is to augment a streaming server like Mezzmo with an App installable via BD player interface and fully using its API, like Samsung Apps distributed via their Apps Store. So its unfortunate, but I feel the concept of a streaming server alone is too limited to address multichannel lossless audio playback.

Still wonder, if its possible to extend a choice of officially supported by a BD player A/V file formats by an installable App, or it's achievable only by modding the Player's firmware? It looks like in many instances its not limited by decoding & rendering chipsets, because different models are often using the same chipset, but support different A/V format subsets. So its more marketing driven, and by product differentiation policy within a maker's product line.